🎙️ Jon Creyts, CEO of RMI | The Clean Sweep: Industrial Decarbonization and a Just Energy Transition
Welcome to The Clean Sweep, a podcast where we share solutions to the climate crisis. Dive into this episode where we explore the accelerating pace of the energy transition, systems level change, and industrial decarbonization. Emil and Lisa chat with Jon Creyts of RMI, an organization working to transform the global energy system to secure a clean, prosperous future for all.
What does systems level decarbonization take? Jon describes partnerships for enabling the renewables market and RMI's instrumental role in supporting the Clean Energy Buyers Alliance. We discuss efficiency in industrial processes and eliminating the loss of energy via heat through electrification. Energy flow diagrams can help us identify opportunities for efficiency and decarbonization.
We address the democratization of energy resources, where the majority of countries can self-supply renewables. The Just Energy Transition Partnership (JETP) catalyzes energy system investment through international cooperation for country-led energy transition by expanding access to finance. Listen in for advice for the younger generation on their pivotal role in this transformative era of climate and energy.
Learn More:
RMI is an independent, non-partisan, nonprofit organization of experts across disciplines working to accelerate the clean energy transition and improve lives. Links to Jon Creyts and RMI’s thought leadership.
Episode Transcript
The Clean Sweep Podcast: Jon Creyts (RMI) On Systems Change, Industrial Decarbonization, and A Just Energy Transition
Jon: As we look at where we stand in the energy transition, we’re just at that moment where we’re moving into exponential growth, right? We’re seeing the shifting of the energy system. We’re seeing solar grow at an exponential scale, we’re seeing wind, batteries, EVs, and certainly their adoption grow. We’re starting to see the same thing happen with heat pumps. In the very early stages of hydrogen electrolyzers, all this non-linear change means that we can tip these economic systems in the same way that some of the environmental systems are. That should give us all hope right now.
In the very early stages of hydrogen electrolyzers, all this non-linear change means that we can tip these economic systems in the same way that some of the environmental systems are. That should give us all hope right now.
Emil: Hi, I’m Emil. Pleasure to meet you. I’m the current president of the Harvard Undergraduate Energy Group. I’m from DC, currently working at the American Clean Power Association, which has been pretty interesting. And I’m studying Environmental Science. Shocker.
Jon: Brilliant. Delighted to meet you.
Emil: Great. Jon, if you could also introduce yourself and what you do.
Jon: Yeah, I’m Jon Creyts, I’m the Chief at Rocky Mountain Institute. I’m a bit of a recovering management consultant and a reformed engineer, and, you know, a champion of the energy transition, figuring out how we solve this tremendous challenge of climate change as quickly as possible.
Lisa: Thanks Jon. My name’s Lisa. I am a recent graduate - crazy that this is our first podcast episode where I share that. I studied Environmental Science and Engineering with a minor in Energy at Harvard. We’re excited to chat with you today and excited to hear some of your big takes, including on industrial decarbonization, the just energy transition, and broader grid-scale decarb.
Jon: Awesome. Awesome. I love it.
Emil: You are the CEO of a large environmental think tank. And so we want to know, what’s top of mind for you today at RMI? What big things in the field of energy and environment have you been thinking about?
Jon: It’s difficult at this time not to think about environmental tipping points right after being in the hottest July ever in recorded history, but probably since our species is on the planet, which should have us all giving pause. But in the same way that there are environmental tipping points, think about the economic ones there are. At RMI, as we look at where we stand in the energy transition, we’re seeing that we’re just at that moment where we’re moving into exponential growth, right?
And the shifting of the energy system we’re seeing. Solar is growing at an exponential scale. We’re seeing wind, batteries, EVs, and certainly their adoption grow. We’re starting to see the same thing happen with heat pumps. We’re seeing the same thing happen in the very early stages of hydrogen electrolyzers, right?
Where all this non-linear change means that we can tip these economic systems in the same way that some of the environmental systems are. That should give us all hope right now. So we’ve got to be aware of it. It doesn’t mean the job is over.
Think about Moore’s Law, right? And how semiconductors have evolved over time. That progress hasn’t been just a given; it’s because people worked hard, recognizing it could be done to overcome all the technical barriers, all the market barriers, all the distribution barriers, etc. And they had to innovate consistently and constantly to make that a reality. Now, we’re seeing that start to happen within the energy space, and that’s exciting. It doesn’t mean we let up, right? We need to persevere.
We need to keep overcoming each of those barriers and challenges in deployment. We should be more hopeful now than, perhaps, we would’ve been five years ago for sure. At what’s possible and the cost points and the technology advances.
Emil: That's very hopeful to hear. And on that note of hope, something we've been wondering about is what specific tools for decarbonizing industry, the grid, and global economies are you really interested in? You mentioned fuel cells, heat pumps. Is there something that you think is maybe underappreciated, or a tool that you've been really excited about recently that you're excited to see what kind of impact it'll have?
Jon: Yeah, I'm going to go a different way than the technology, right? The technology's there. As I've mentioned already, there are lots of super interesting innovations, in green ammonia, super insulation, or a number of different areas that we can be excited about.
But what is starting to happen at scale—and RMI is playing our role but also seeing things change—is in the systems-level approaches that we're starting to take.
The world is converging in quite extraordinary ways. The grid isn't just about expanding supply to deal with electrification. It's also about efficient use and demand response. Solving for battery production isn't just about building more mines. It's about using vehicles differently, having fewer of them, sharing more of them, using vehicles more efficiently, and increasing battery recycling.
And we're starting to see this systems-level thinking happen at scale around the future energy economy rather than the existing one. That kind of systems-level approach is a tool that's starting to become realized. As the electricity grid talks to the building sector differently, as the building sector talks to the automotive sector differently, as industry starts to think differently about its role, it's quite remarkable. These tools of how we engage at the systems level, how we co-create this future—that's really exciting for me right now. Especially for you all, thinking about where you're coming out and making your mark, and how you've used what you've learned. Thinking and working in systems and changing those systems is what we have to be focused on.
Emil: Yeah. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit how RMI thinks about change. How does the structure of RMI connect to that change? You do research with government partnerships, community outreach, open-source findings—all these things. What's your approach to getting things to scale and providing this change?
Jon: I wish we had one single formula. But change needs to be tailored to every context you're in. At RMI, we often talk about our change processes in terms of scale, and in three different pieces. First, try to see around corners and use hard facts and research to understand what's possible in the future.
Then try things out—figure out through the first-of-a-kind project what’s possible, learn from it, break things, fix them, repair, replace, and then scale. For us, scaling happens largely through markets. We believe that a well-directed market is the fastest way to drive change in the end.
That doesn’t mean you only need policy. Policy is one important way to guide markets, but creative finance, technology and new tools, data, engaging customers, building forward market commitments, and aligning communications to support leadership development and growth—RMI sees all of that as driving change. Every sector and every geography has different needs.
We work to take that acupuncture needle, point it in, and figure out how to get things to flow differently. RMI really works to do exactly that—to make markets flow differently.
Maybe good example, 'cause I, I don't wanna talk all in abstract here.
Practically, if we think, over decade ago, right around 2011 there was only one, one company out there that was, that was buying its own renewables direct and that was Google, right? And at that time, they'd done two transactions in the market for power.
And RMI came in said, well, gosh, how we make this accessible to more companies? we worked with about a dozen to to, start helping educate buyers on "what does it look to buy power over or 25 years?"
What are the contract terms that they should be interested in and understanding how we develop standardized contracts for those, those types of transactions? How do we create a contract of differences, right? That doesn't require physical delivery, but starts to deal with. You know, kind creative ways of virtual power purchase agreements.
How do we then kind of match developers alongside, corporate buyers and, and bring in intermediaries and create an active market? RMI sat in middle of that and helped to nurture the development of this whole market that didn't exist over a decade ago and now accounts for roughly half of the power purchased in the United States of the new renewables purchased in United States comes through what, what has evolved and become the Clean Energy Buyers Alliance and they're expanding globally and taking on new issues in and have about 300 companies now involved and engaged.
And that's something that all started with this, think do, scale mindset where we laid out the theory, we started doing it with few, and then we scaled it many.
Lisa: Thank you for walking us step by step through how the Clean Energy Buyers Alliance came to be, because last summer I did work on 24 7 clean power and talk to folks at MRETS, different corporate buyers and I had no idea that, know, RMI was so integral to building out this, this [00:11:00] ecosystem and removing the friction for participate in, in clean energy purchasing.
Jon: It's exciting. And 24/7 is the next evolution, right? These are on the frontier that these same corporate buyers are trying to wrestle with right now. And where you know, like RMI are all engaged and, and trying to, again, put those acupuncture needles into the system and help everything flow a little bit.
Lisa: While we're on the topic of virtual power plants, I'm curious to hear what you think are the greatest opportunities to actually unlocking an ecosystem where buildings and vehicles can actually connect and support the electric grid.
Jon: Yeah. so are, these are challenging topics, Right. And especially when we into convergence, I talked the need or the excitement around systems level thinking. But systems level thinking doesn't always happen by design. Right? and you need to have somebody who's thinking across [00:12:00] buildings and mobility in order to make, make the system move faster. You know, we've been working a lot on electrification India. Lately, right? And thinking about how do we get to large scale electrification, not from the wealthiest, you know, who can afford it first, right? Which is kind the top down model. That says always start with who can afford and, and, and then percolate down into market bottom of the pyramid, right?
It costs about a quarter the price to run an electric wheeler or three-wheeler in India than it does to its equivalent internal combustion engine, wheeler tuk-tuk in the streets. And so if we start recognizing that building up, what you need to do is up, you 1) the industrial supply chain to provide vehicles, 2) charging and, [00:13:00] and availability that that meets. And, 3) get them nucleated at a density that starts to build both of those markets and and make it more and more available to everyone.
So what we focused on was really the rideshare market, right? Number one, high density thinking about where make that available. And also the urban delivery market. So working with companies like. the ride rideshare uber and Ola and others on the, on the corporate delivery side, folks like Flipkart and and Walmart, all being together and building up. Then a program that rewards and, supports individuals choosing to their transportation their vehicle purchase or their I'm sorry, package delivery. And in first [00:14:00] year, worked alongside Vitilog, which is the central planning entity the government, partnered with now over 150 corporations to deliver, either 150 million zero carbon packages zero carbon ride shares in the first And we've just reengaged and launched a new campaign. That's going from a few major cities now out across at and this type of engagement. Right? It's, we, It's, the first large scale media engagement that, that RMI done has really been able to pull people into the energy transition in ways that we just haven't experienced previously. And, and as we've done that, it to convergence of electrification of vehicles, individual charging stations, in [00:15:00] multifamily and, and know shared communities, et that gets to that convergence, the co-design, the systems level reformation that need in order to make the, the transition, the energy not just happen, but happen with equitable, equitable benefits all.
Lisa: Yeah. Jon, it's great to hear about kind of this infrastructure level change and how that differs across different geographies. For It's really interesting to think about this roadmap we have ahead of us for electrification and decarbonizing buildings to transportation. to Um, industry. And with that, I'm curious to hear kind of more about increasing energy efficiency in our industries. In our club, we talk a lot about Sankey Diagrams. So we see that two thirds of primary energy is rejected from the initial energy that enters our economy. And we can also see how there's so much wasted in the form of rejected heat. And so [00:16:00] how do we waste less of this energy and, you know, make the most out of the energy that produce?
Jon: Well, I love this question, Lisa, because it speaks to the change that's underway, right? Which is the way that you eliminate that heat, the way that you eliminate that loss, the way that eliminate restrictions on the Carnot efficiency, is to move away from thermodynamics, right? We don't to burn things propel the next energy economy. We can use direct conversion technologies and move to electrification, in order to allow us, wherever possible to improve conversion efficiencies. You know, by estimates. We get, we reduce overall energy consumption, and efficiency right of the system by one to two percentage points a year through large scale electrification.
Which is pretty exciting, right? So that's basically almost doubling the pace of energy efficiency capture in the [00:17:00] process of electrification. Now there are some places where we're gonna have to deal with thermal efficiencies. There, there some tough sectors that we have to address cement , in steel, in other of the, the unquote hard to abate sectors where we may be using hydrogen, not. For its, direct reduction characteristics, but instead for, its, its ability to be burned and, and the energy out of that.
But even there, you know, there are lots of ways that as we rethink industrial processes and we rethink industrial structures, we can do so much efficiently. And we can and be designing for super efficiency in our process design for this next generation. 'we're gonna, we're gonna be massively retooling and the energy system, which is much entire industrial system in one way or another touch [00:18:00] the energy transition. And that's, that's a huge opportunity for us to just rethink and reorient it is we build and deploy what we know and focus more on what need in terms of the end outcome as opposed to what we produce.
You know, this goes back to Amory Lovins and, you know people want warm showers and cold beer in the end. Let's focus on delivery of those in the most efficient mode possible. rather than just trying to throughput things through the economy, and build more stuff.
Lisa: Absolutely.
Jon: It could be hot tea or cold ice cream. We could think about it in different But, the idea is that, that in end we're to deliver, you know, a benefit to somebody and that benefit can be decoupled from the energy and material that have used to create it. And again, that helps us to rethink and find new ways be [00:19:00] more efficient and, and also to, to deliver what's valued directly.
Lisa: There's so many ways that we can be more creative in decarbonization and delivering all of these great services. How do we begin to think about decarbonizing industry? Who holds the power and who makes these decisions?
Jon: Yeah, I mean, this, this comes and- I started with systems thinking. If
we use your example, steel, right? There about scale steel plants that account for the vast majority of carbon emissions from that sector, which is sizable. Roughly about 8% of CO2 are to produce steel, right? So how do we intervene there?
We have to think about creating a system that first, you know, provide some of the technical solutions and the roadmap to get to net zero for those plans. We have to be able to then educate a set of, you [00:20:00] know, certainly the plant owners, but the plant buyers on what's possible for everyone who's buying steel.
We have to educate the financiers who finance, that, that plants and under understand what technologies and what upgrades they should be the future. And we need to ultimately then, design some of the policies that support a positive shift in that overall capitalization of the plant And if we do that, you get a point where the producers are starting to shift, the buyers demanding, the financiers are supporting.
The policy makers are ensuring that it happens in the future kind of system. And you get into a flywheel here that starts to reform the overall, you know, kind of sector as a whole.
And this, this of the basis of of, theory of change for what we up called the mission Possible [00:21:00] partnership, not just to deal steel. but deal with cement and aluminum and chemicals and and shipping heavy duty freight and aviation, and, really help of these industries, in a different way.
And we've been working alongside the World Economic Forum alongside, uh, leading business, Systemic and others to put this into motion and to out that exact flywheel. And have engaged over 300 companies so far engaged directly to help build out sector roadmaps, new financing capacity and capabilities.
For instance, at Week, we an alongside five major banks. There's sustainable steel principles they were gonna investments going forward. Those can all be done. They need to be done again in a coordinated that shifts system. and when do, [00:22:00] announcements and movement like the steel plants in Sweden that start to produce that, carbon neutral steel, right? Um, That we all need going forward. And We get one plant those 300 tip need to now figure out the ways to, to move on 299 right.
Lisa: Yeah, that's great. Hearing about these partnerships and the flywheels that you're creating because systemic change is underway.
Emil: Yeah, and you've been talking kind of about global systems that, you know, need reforming and kind of, you know, policymaker, financier, all these people who need to be involved to change out infrastructure. But in terms of like a global. System, obviously there are gonna be a lot of coal plants, all sorts of manufacturing facilities that need to either swap out their energy input or shut down. You know, if we're trying to make this full transition. So, I mean, on the topic of stranded assets, how does RMI [00:23:00] retiring existing coal plants early without kind of exacerbating that issue. Like what's the playbook for plants that are really crucial right now, but you know, maybe do need to be retired in the future?
Jon: I mean, this is, this is one of the big challenges of the energy transition, right? Is that we can't run all of our existing fossil fuel assets to their end of economic life. And so some investors along the way may lose in the process here, and we've gotta be clear on, you know, what's the process that we go through in order to help shut those plants down early?
And make sure that our global environmental goals are met alongside um, supports that allow this transition to happen more easily.
Because if, if in the end, we just tell people, you've gotta take a massive loss on your investment today voluntarily, they're not even gonna talk to you. Involuntarily, they're gonna be very upset and [00:24:00] frustrated. And so smoothing the pathway there and making sure that The signal to the market is clear, right? So that, first off, we gotta stop building anything new that's dependent upon fossil fuels and recognize that. But then, you know, four investments that were made along the way where there wasn't a full consciousness of the climate impacts, but nonetheless need to be retired.
We need to soften some of the blow there where possible to help uh, transition happen faster and. That happens for us in creating, you know, sometimes carbon markets that allow you to, to compensate, these, uh, asset owners for, for retirement. This happens in, You know, in the process of creating new financial instruments, oftentimes in generation for, for coal plants, for instance, it can be cheaper for renewables to replace that coal on either a marginal [00:25:00] cost or a
total cost basis.
So how can we refinance provide uh, differential financing vehicle that allows for the investment in solar or wind to happen alongside the retirement of the coal plant That works, especially when coal plants are, are, toward the end of their life, right? Um, and them off the books earlier For, plants that are very early in their their tenure, right? We sometimes we need to have more aggressive instruments and figure out ways that compensate and support differently that swap some of the equity or debt in those, um, uh, existing plants for some of the growth in either the renewables that are replacing or new industries that are being constructed here going forward.
So that there is a little bit of or sugar that's added to the, the, of, uh, retirement or shutdown. These are, they're issues and everyone's a little bit different. I think for [00:26:00] RMI, know, this is where we have to focus on the hard, you know, kind engineering of how do you make this work and get the public benefit, but also you know, kind not make it as painful because um, it's pure resistance that you meet every step of the way, then it's gonna be a really slow and painful transition that just doesn't respond. the environmental crisis that we're that we're facing.
Lisa: Yeah. And Jon, I want go back to this idea you of it being cheaper for renewables these coal plants, even though right in that investors might have losses by closing down these plans earlier than expected. So in a lot of places it's it seems like coal is already less profitable renewables. And on the line refinancing, what possibilities are out there for actually, let's say, I think I was listening to Leah Stokes podcast, a matter of degrees where I [00:27:00] learned about coal debt securitization, like our tools like this, the, the way forward here in the US down coal plants before expected lifetime.
Jon: Yeah. Again, the US is a great example here of where oftentimes the economics do work for coal debt securitization that allow for a shift to renewables, a refinance of the coal debt, um, and a net benefit overall to, uh, the utility and the rate payer in the process. So these are, these are the types of creative financial instruments that we need to explore and work with. Um, can be win-wins for uh, uh, shareholders, stakeholders, uh, rate payers all same time Um, it's, again, it takes different environments. You can build different instruments and different environments. Much more challenging in places like Indonesia, again, where the coal plants are relatively new.[00:28:00]
Uh, where, um, know, there are. Take or pay contracts that require that they keep running right now and that they were originally financed Um, you have to, you have to, work very carefully on. And that's, that's kind of the, the challenge with the just energy transition partnership or JETP that's going on in Indonesia right of the world with other countries as well, where, where you're trying to
move these assets uh, uh, books or, or shut them
down ahead of their end of economic life and need to create stakeholder alignment around how to do
how to do.
Emil: You mentioned you know, retiring some of these assets. How can countries like the US support kind of nations that maybe do have coal plants that were just built and that are trying to transition but do kind of have these legal instruments that are already in place. Like, is there any place that the US has to help out or support or, um, you know, what, what's kind of your thinking on that on that international piece? [00:29:00]
Jon: Yeah, the international piece, again, there, there are tricky dynamics here because if we take, you know, a, a country like Indonesia, you know, financing of those coal plants that exist there, some of which are still under construction, right? And we know aren't gonna be profitable wouldn't be profitable on a total cost basis, but for the fact that. that they Required, you know, that there are take or pay requirements for uh, to be run in the end. You know, they were financed some by Indonesians, right? Who took equity positions there. They were financed some by multilateral or, or bilateral banks Um, provided for those investments So you're looking at either local investors or international investors that need to take a loss in some way or write down against their investments in order to not run these end of life. That's where, you know, a country like the United States can step in and help smooth a little bit of the challenge there. I, you know, it's oftentimes challenging for the United States give, give, away money to support this, right? That would be, uh, giving taxpayers money to support another country. And typically the United States can't do that, but it can help support, um, know, some of the conversations there. It can help, uh, engage the different multilateral financiers. It can help support the building of, of new alternative industries that benefit from electrification or support, you know, kind of the, the establishment of, of new industries in order to. To ensure that, net net, you know, a country like Indonesia or Vietnam or whoever they're engaging, sees benefits, sees job
um, even if they have to swallow a tougher around, uh, some set of losses or some uh, need [00:31:00] to in the end consign themselves to investment of some sort.
Lisa: Yeah. Jon, John, I am so glad you bring up this just energy transition partnership because it's a program reading a lot about and excited to hear in greater detail how partnerships like this can really help coal dependent developing nations transition to clean energy, especially as you mentioned because it requires such a large capital Um, and
Jon: Yeah, I, I should say that's one of the ways that the US has played a really important role, and certainly with Indonesia, they help identify $20 billion in financing facilities, right? To support Indonesia in its energy transition and, and have been on different carbon market instruments to. to. support uh, well. Um, and so there, the United States has been a strong voice. But back to you, Lisa, your question.
Yeah.
Lisa: So I recently had the [00:32:00] opportunity to speak to high school students in Indonesia for a sustainability summit. And as I presented energy 101 and clean energy, I brought up the question of whether these students think that Indonesia's renewable energy targets are ambitious enough. In my mind I already had the response like, we are in the middle of a climate crisis, we need to shift to clean energy. There are so many other health and economic to be to be recouped as well. But the students were a lot more skeptical. They, you know, acknowledged how there's a lot of new coal being built out. In the former slide I showed their energy mix of like 2% renewables compared to the majority of oil And so I am curious to hear more about like, why programs like this are so necessary. And I think something that stood and Heal or the Happy Leadership Program is that it's not just money that the US can provide, but it's also much needed expertise. I saw that RMI [00:33:00] is going to equip 30 to 50 stakeholders across sectors with skills and expertise necessary to enable Indonesia's clean energy transition. But could you just talk to us a bit more about how Jet we can really actionably you know, help these students and their families and their country transition to renewables?
Jon: Yeah, so I, JETP it's financial engineering. It is about how do we create the incentives and unlock some of capital to support the shutdowns of of assets early. Right? And that's happening in South Africa. happening in Indonesia. It's happening in Vietnam. There countries where it's being explored and it's a, it's a multilateral governmental effort to try and and help this process go forward. I've spoken a a bit about that already. I don't think challenge that the energy transition is I made the case that's happening very fast but for, for most people, they don't think a lot about energy, [00:34:00] right? And they don't experience a lot about energy and and decisions are made, you know, every or ten new assets that, for the fact that we have seen a 90% cost reduction in storage or, 80% cost reduction in renewables over the last 10 years, that is super fast for them. And suddenly the world, the whole world, is completely different, right? And most people are just not in touch with the pace and scale of the technology disruption that's underway right now And so, you know, part of What RMI is doing with the, the Heal program is communities ultimately they need to choose the energy transition that makes the most sense for them. And in order to make that choice, they need be educated on what are the facts around what's available. You know, can a power grid stay doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow, or or it gets too hot or it gets too cold. Right. Think about, you know, kind of. [00:35:00] the relative benefits and costs of the different systems. Most communities don't have anything like the information that's required to make reasonable decisions, especially in this fast changing world.
RMI is partnered, um, alongside, uh, a foundation in in Indonesia of community action agencies throughout Indonesia to help build up the awareness, the critical skills, right? The entrepreneurial capacity to start to lead, not just dialogue around what should we be doing, but to practically engage and support communities and building the clean energy system most sense for them here going forward And so that's, that's what's really exciting for us is to uh, this frontline, uh, participate in this frontline activity that changes the mindset of of those engage with Lisa so that actually, there's a different [00:36:00] world there a different of possibilities than what they've seen and, uh, experience it firsthand helping to build you know, kind transition for themselves.
Emil: And and kind of topic know, a energy system system that works for everybody. What does, in, in your head, what does a, a just energy transition look visualizing a just a just energy You can you can take kind a, broad as narrow as you'd like but what what is something that immediately comes to your mind, either in the US or abroad?
Jon: Well, it's always easy to, to start what it's not. And in our current energy system, we have about 10% of the countries in the world controlling the resources for about 80% countries in the world right? There are only 10% in there that actually self-supply and manage their own resources And that creates an inequity, right?
A huge inequity. When you think about how it is that world relates to [00:37:00] energy and you know, when you look at renewables, it's actually almost the exact opposite, right? 90% of the world, 90% of the people on the planet can self-supply within their Uh, 10% is dependent upon imports of energy. of some kind So there's a good reason for us to shift, right? When we think about uh, the challenges that we've had with global instability, right? We can, We can relieve some of the energy security issues, but we can also greatly democratize access to energy here going forward.
And that just energy transition starts with democratizing access and ultimately ends with the point of we can get to a point where energy is almost free, right? Whereas so low cost that it doesn't constrain how it is that people develop their communities and their industries and their way of [00:38:00] being, and they can do so in alignment without having to deal with health impacts or uh, you know, kind of direct um, environmental impacts within their communities and they can avert climate change in the process. So for me, the just energy transition looks like communities that choose The energy transition that makes the most sense for them, that delivers these benefits of low cost, secure, non-polluting health uh, favorable outcomes uh, ultimately also supports economic vibrancy through jobs and participation.
Lisa: That visualization makes this sustainable energy future feel tangible. Again, we know what it takes to get there. To round out our conversation, we have a lot of student listeners here with the Clean Sweep, and we'd love to hear your advice for young hoping to work in climate and energy, and also why young people should [00:39:00] feel so optimistic to be getting into this space right now.
Jon: The first thing I would say is you're needed, right? Um, it is essential that those of you who feel inspired and engaged and wanna make a, make a difference here uh, is the biggest transformation our world has ever seen, right? Certainly from an economic sense and hopefully from lots of other perspectives.
I would say number one, there’s absolutely a need for you. Two, never has your generation had more power in the voice, right? You are entering into a job market at a time where, you know, frankly, there aren't enough people working and solving these issues, let alone everything else that needs to be done. People are more aware, employers are more aware of what it means to be a good steward of resources, a steward and developer of talent.
So you have disproportionate voice, right in where you choose to work and why you choose to work and what companies or institutions you want to make successful. So use that. Right? and and the third thing I would say, you know, I mentioned about tipping points and, and the fact that we're poised. but of people that are still, like those students that with, Lisa, they're trapped in old ways thinking and you can bring new ways of thinking that doesn't accept, you know, that change can't happen quickly, that we can't solve this crisis right now. What gives me the greatest hope is that it is a crisis and that when faced with huge challenge, We can rise and meet to We've shown that again and again as civilization, right around the planet. [00:41:00] Um, this is the moment right now where in the most recent, you know, COVID happened and we rose to that challenge And we recognize this is an equal challenge and apply ourselves with the same, you know, kind of, uh, ferocity to it and really take it on at scale. And from that is going be, not just solutions, but better ways of living, better ways of building community, better ways of ultimately rising to this higher purpose that we have as, as humans to really relate to each other the world that we live in differently than we do now. And that's, that for me is the the optimism, the excitement. Is in how much better we can make things and how this moment can be the catalytic for doing so.
Lisa: Thank you so much. You heard it from Jon, we have the power to choose what institutions we want to make successful and we can make disproportionate impact.
Emil: Yeah so much. I will say, [00:42:00] you know, just from my own standpoint, I have learned a lot in just the past hour, especially about kind of like, you know, accepting a starting point of, okay, we need to think about systems, we need to think about, what roadmaps we have, but also just kind of a philosophical standpoint of, you know this is what we need to do, like Lisa said. So thank you so joining us, Jon and it's been a pleasure.
Jon: Delighted. Thank you again, Emil and Lisa. Pleasure to share the time with you. Um, good luck to you both. Good luck to all of your listeners. Together, together we can do this. So let's get busy.
Lisa: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Clean Sweep. This episode was presented to you by Daylight Climate at daylightclimate.substack.com, and the Harvard Undergraduate Clean Energy Group. Follow us at Harvard Clean Energy on social media or at We hope to share more clean energy and climate ideas with you again soon. Until then, stay [00:43:00] engaged and keep working towards a sustainable energy future.